Wisdom Wednesday feat. Todd McVicker
Join Wisdom & Kat for a conversation with Christian artist, Todd McVicker, as they discuss authenticity in Christian music, creating meaningful industry relationships, and why getting started is one of the most important parts of the artist journey. Be sure to check out Todd’s music here — or his incredibly creative music videos over on his YouTube.
Want to be a guest on the show or have someone you wish we’d have on? Email us at hello@marketingwithwisdom.com.
Kat:
Hi, Instagram. Happy Wednesday. I am back from my vacation, where I was last week, which is why I wasn't here. And I'm excited to be here now. We went down to the Destin-Panama City Beach area, which is something I didn't know was a huge thing, and then we moved to Nashville and apparently that is where everyone goes. So, it was great. I'm going to go ahead and bring Wisdom in. But it was very fun and it was great to be at the beach. It was my first trip in forever. Hi.
Wisdom:
I think you need to stop bragging about your vacation.
Kat:
Oh my gosh. I'm trying to tell people where I was, so that they just didn't think I just, I don't know, went missing for a week.
Wisdom:
I'm just kidding. I'm glad you got to go enjoy the beach.
Kat:
Thank you. It was great.
Wisdom:
Yeah.
Kat:
Are you guys going to do a vacation this year?
Wisdom:
We actually just, my wife and I, just texted this morning about maybe going to Branson or something this weekend.
Kat:
Oh, cool.
Wisdom:
More spontaneous. But, yeah, we do want to go to the beach this summer.
Kat:
Yeah. It's pretty great. I'm not going to lie.
Wisdom:
Yeah.
Kat:
If you're watching this right now, you should tell us where you're planning to go, or wanting to go, on vacation in the next few months, because it's that time of year. Are your kids done with school? Are they out?
Wisdom:
Oh yeah. Yeah.
Kat:
The dream.
Wisdom:
Yeah.
Kat:
Well, welcome back to Wisdom Wednesday. I'm Kat, I'm the Digital Marketing Director here at Marketing With Wisdom and Christian Music Marketing, and I'm joined by the man himself, Wisdom.
Wisdom:
Oh, me?
Kat:
Yeah. No, someone else. Yeah.
Wisdom:
Hello. I'm hoping I don't sneeze during this because my allergies are kicking in, full force, the past few days. And yeah, I was actually outside last night with the kids, we took a walk and then we played four square in our driveway, and then I was just a mess afterwards with allergies. So...
Kat:
It happens. I feel like mine were really bad at the start of March and now not so much. Okay, we've gotten some feedback. Some people are saying they want to go to Nashville this year. Come on down. It is great here. There's a lot to do. And someone else said they want to go north, it's too hot here. They're not wrong. We are about to head into that a hundred degrees plus time of year. So anyways, thank you all so much for tuning in with us week after week. I'm really excited about today because this is somebody that both you and I knew pretty well, and who we love working with, and who we can't wait to introduce all of you to. So I'm going to bring him in. Everyone pray that it works. But we're excited to introduce you all to Todd McVicker.
Wisdom:
Oh, that was like the perfect entrance. Wow.
Todd:
Hello.
Kat:
Hi Todd.
Todd:
How's it going?
Kat:
Good. Look at your cool background.
Todd:
Yeah, I tried to do a little something, something for you guys. I have to represent my hometown. Yeah.
Wisdom:
Yeah.
Kat:
Where are you joining us from right now?
Todd:
I'm at work. I work at a church called Victory Church right outside of Atlanta, so I'm in my office.
Kat:
Very cool.
Todd:
Yeah.
Kat:
Very cool. Me too. Mine's just less decorated than yours at this present time.
Todd:
I have to have stuff in offices, so I don't go crazy. So I have to have stuff to look at. Yeah.
Kat:
Makes sense. Makes sense.
Wisdom:
Yeah.
Kat:
Well I think, I guess just start by telling people who you are.
Todd:
Yeah.
Kat:
And then we'll go from there. I want people to hear about your music because your music is super cool and very different than anyone else's, but start by introducing yourself to people.
Todd:
Yeah. Well, thank you. My name is Todd McVicker. I am pretty new to releasing music. I just started as a solo artist releasing last July, so it hasn't even been a year yet, which has been crazy. I've done stuff with the church, had some Christian bands years and years ago, stuff like that, but the first time as a solo, writing the music, releasing it. And so it's been a lot of fun. I have been on staff at a great church for almost 14 years now, served in many different worship capacities and just transitioned, about a year ago, into this new role that we're calling Creative Arts Pastor, so less to do with the week to week worship stuff and more overall creative projects, and big Easter things, and Christmases, and those kinds of things. So, it's been a lot of fun. I'm married, we're going on 17 years in July, which is just absolutely crazy, and we have a daughter who is working at a church outside of Cleveland, Ohio. So yeah, ministry runs in the family.
Wisdom:
Awesome. So Todd, I know you're pretty involved on the church side with the church music as well, but what kind of transpired you releasing your own music?
Todd:
Yeah, that's a great story. So, I grew up always just involved in music. I mean, I tell people I sung at my preschool graduation. I had a solo. You know what I mean? So it's always been... I had a solo in my fourth-grade play, has always just been a huge part of me. I went to performing arts high school and was all involved in choir, and theater, and all those things. Grew up wanting to be like a Justin Timberlake, things like that. So I've always been super involved in music and writing.
Todd:
And then there's a period of time where I got super self-conscious about the stuff that I was hearing when I was writing and just bought into this whole thing of it's just not any good. I'm going to just lay that down. I'm going to let other people do that and I'll just focus on other things. And I mean, I didn't write, I mean, for years and years and years and years, and just would do the popular worship covers and if someone else wrote something, I would support that, but just sort of let it lay dormant. And then about, I guess, six or seven years ago, I went on a missions trip, it was a worship missions trip to Belize, which is just beautiful people, they love the Lord. It was such a special time.
Todd:
And there was a song, sort of a chorus, that came out of a spontaneous worship time from one of our very young worship people. I think she was 16, 17, 18 at the time.
Kat:
Whoa.
Todd:
Yeah. So, and it was really powerful in these sort of spontaneous worship moments. So we got back and I just had this burden to help younger worship leaders write and so I got with some friends that had dabbled in it a little bit and I said, "Hey, we need to get together with this young worship leader and help her develop this song and maybe this could be for the church." And he goes, "I know this guy who lives right down the street, that has a home studio, and he's really good, and he'll let us use the space." I was like, "Oh great."
Todd:
So we went over, wrote the song and, I didn't know it at the time, but met this guy. His name is Sean Hill, who is pretty much my primary producer, who I write a ton with, release a lot of music with, and he just sort of unlocked something where we all wrote this song together, started doing it in the church, and then from that moment, we started writing a bunch of songs for church, which was really, really cool. So that bug of writing sort of came back alive in me and realized the more that we wrote, we were doing really cool things with the church music, but there's a lot of things that we would have to pivot in writing, or even the production side of it, where we had to make it more corporate or more palatable to the masses that will come on a Sunday. Which is great, but it was something that felt like a frustration for me.
Todd:
So a lot of conversations and prayer. And I probably talked about releasing stuff on my own for, I don't know, three or four years before we did anything about it, just because it's terrifying, the time commitment, the money commitment, the responsibility of that, it was just this huge undertaking in my mind. And so I finally got to a place where I was just like, "We just need to go for it." And thankfully my community and my wife was so supportive of that. And so we started writing and came up with some, I think, some really cool ideas and things to say. And it was important to me too that the songs that we wrote and released said something different. I tell this story to people all the time, but there's plenty of people out there that can write the songs about the oceans, and the mountains, and that stuff is beautiful.
Wisdom:
There's a lot of that stuff.
Todd:
And is great, and there's absolutely a place for that, but I want the other people to do that. That's not something that I want to talk about. So I wanted to make sure that the songs said something authentic and they sounded authentic to what I heard. So, it's been a blast, man. It's scary and I'm still a little unsure from day today, but I'm seeing some cool response from it and it's been really, really cool. So that's the very long version of that answer.
Kat:
Yeah. That is... Man, now I'm just thinking about all your songs and I'm wondering, do you feel like now that you're on the other side of the first project, at least, do you feel like you accomplished what you wanted to, as far as saying what you wanted to say? And then secondly, is there one song that, to you, is the most personal of the ones that you put out or that contains the most of yourself, for lack of a better term?
Todd:
Yeah, it definitely accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. This first project was, there was sort of no rhyme or reason sonically of what's happening, it's all over the map, which is something that I was pretty passionate about because I have so many different influences on sounds and vibes that I just kind of wanted to get it all out first and then kind of decide from there what kind of lane I want to go in. So, that was super fulfilling. And then, yeah, probably the most personal song out of that project is the last one that we released called Finished with Fighting, just because it came at such a raw time in my journey as a songwriter and artist. I mean, the lyrics in there are, each one of them are chosen to convey something special. So it was probably the most personal one out of... They all have different elements of it that was super personal, but that one's the most raw. If you could peek inside of my heart, at that moment, that's really what I was feeling, to just lay all the junk down and just... If I could just leave everything behind and just focus on who God is, that's what I want, more than anything else.
Wisdom:
So you're a fully independent artist and you did this on your own without a label or anybody really helping you push it out besides working with, you kind of put together your own team of people. Sometimes that could be very discouraging. You could feel kind of isolated or just overwhelmed, and it could be easy to just kind of throw in the towel if you don't get certain numbers that you're hoping to get, and maybe if you don't get certain placements on playlists and things like that, but I think what's really powerful in those moments is just hearing people's stories. I actually in my inbox have a special folder that basically says encouragement, so anytime I get an encouraging email or something, I put it in there for those days where I feel really discouraged.
Todd:
That's so good.
Wisdom:
Or I feel like just quitting. Have there been stories like that that you've heard from people, maybe one that stands out that you could share with us?
Todd:
Yeah. Man, first of all, that's a great idea to do that, to keep those, because I hear them and then if I don't save them somewhere, I'm definitely going to forget them. And I'll say that you guys both, I mean, the whole team at Christian Music Marketing, but specifically you two have been such an instrumental part of what I've been able to accomplish as an independent artist. So I honestly don't think it would've done anything had I not met you guys. So I'm very, very thankful for what you do for the artist, especially the independent artist out there, to really help, so that that's been huge. So thank you. Yeah, there's been a few just really powerful stories.
Todd:
The first one was, the first single that we released, a song called Lifeline, we started that one with sort of just a vibe, sort of, kind of this moody kind of vibe for the song. We started with kind of a beat, which is sort of unusual for my process, but it was just how that song started. And we wrote sort of the chorus idea, had some verse ideas, and then... So we spent a couple of hours in the studio doing that, got a kind of a work tape, went away. And that same day, one of my writing partners got a call that one of his really good friends, had been battling with addiction for years and years and years, in and out of treatment facilities, all this stuff, had to go back into a treatment facility because he relapsed, and this burden of like, "Oh man, this song Lifeline, if my eyes are on you and the cloud and the darkness, if I can just get away from this and focus on you, then I can get some freedom and some help."
Todd:
So we went back and sort of rewrote the song with that sort of idea in mind, for the addict and for the person that was just, they can keep their head above water, they can't get the dark cloud out of there. I mean, depression, and anxiety, and addiction, and all of those things, sort of wrote it from that point of there is hope on the other side of that. And my wife works in the addiction treatment industry, so she's heard from several people that that song is being sent out in those communities as like encouragement. I know, right? Just that it really is being embraced by sort of that recovery community. And there's a friend of mine that had been struggling with some stuff and said that anytime she's struggling she puts the song on and it's just an immediate connection with her and the Lord, to remind her that I've got to keep my eyes on him.
Todd:
So that's been really, really, really powerful. And then recently a friend of ours lost his father and he said that... The dad had been sort of declining over a couple of months, so he knew that it was coming and heard the song, Everything in You, which there's a line in there that says 'you are worth the letting go' and he said that song has been really ministering to him, walking through this process of losing his dad, which I can't even imagine, but that was bringing comfort to him. And his dad recently passed and his wife and son sang the song at the funeral and he sent me a clip of it and it was just mind-boggling that a song like that can just have those far reaches.
Todd:
And again, that's why it's so important to me that they're personal and we aren't just recycling imagery that we've heard, but it really is coming from a place of authenticity, that "God, what are you saying to me or to whoever's in the room writing and what do you want to say to your people?" I think that's just so important.
Wisdom:
Right. Could you tell us the, I think it's the bridge part, where it says 'we came into this world with nothing.' Can you tell us those lines?
Todd:
Yeah. It says 'I came in this world with nothing and I'll leave with nothing but you.' And I believe that's from Job. I think. It's been awhile. We wrote that song awhile ago, but I think that's where that came from. And the song we wrote from the perspective of those first disciples, Jesus coming up on the beach going, "Hey, will you just leave everything right here, don't go home and pack a bag, and just follow me?" So the imagery of the song comes from those stories, which is crazy to me to think about. You're literally in the middle of your vocation, the Messiah shows up and goes, "Okay, just come with me now." And they just do it. The bravery and just the devotion that that took.
Todd:
And so when we got to the bridge point, we really wanted that to say something different. And the idea from Job popped out, that literally, when you think about it, you come into this world, you're so reliant on your mom and your dad, or whoever's taking care of you, and then you leave and you can't take anything with you. So it's the idea of you come in with nothing and you leave with nothing, and really the only thing that remains is that relationship. Does he know you? Do you know him? That's what it's really all about. So it sort of landed. I forget how it came up in the writing, but as soon as someone said it, it was like, "Oh yeah, that's it." And the melody is really simple, so it just really landed. That's one of my favorite.
Kat:
That's hilarious that you brought that up Wisdom because in my head I was thinking of that exact lyric. I was thinking of how I was going to say it because I was like, "I'm going to butcher it. I know I'm not going to say it exactly right." But I think something too Todd that I wonder now, I pulled up your Spotify and I'm just looking at all the songs again, what is it that you feel like you want to do next? You made this, it was obviously, I imagine, beyond what you even imagined, just with how it connected and resonated with so many different people, and so what now? What is it that you want to do now you think?
Todd:
That's a great question Kat. That's something sort of, I've been really weighing out. I'm working on a song now. I think the short answer to that is by nature, I'm a storyteller. So I want to tell stories that are immersive, that bring people into whatever the content of the story is, but that really point to the character of who Jesus is, just really immerse people in whatever the story is. So there's a song that I wrote from this just nuts story from a missions trip from the Philippines a couple of years ago. I worked with an organization called Wipe Every Tear that actually go into the bars where sex trafficking is happening and try to rescue the girls out. So this just crazy story happened, anyway, and this girl came out of the bar this one night while we were there and we wrote this song when I got back based on her perspective of what happened.
Todd:
And we wrote it for the last project and we just couldn't kind of figure out how it fit tonally. And I worked with an artist Harvest Bashta on it, who did the work tape when we were in the studio and her voice is just absolutely insane, and we couldn't figure out how to make it a duet. And anyway, so we shelved it and then we re-approached it when we had some more time, and I think we sort of cracked it on how to approach it as a duet. And so that's the next single that we're working on. That should be done pretty soon. So that'd be the next, but I want to do a whole music video story to tell the full version of what happened.
Todd:
And I mean, the song is all about freedom, that no matter where you are in life, if you feel like you're so far away from God, that love will find you, and you got to respond to it. So I'm very excited about that. And then I think beyond that is figuring out new sounds and vibes of songs, and just trying to push the envelope a little bit. It'd be so easy to just kind of do what I've done, but that's just not in my future, so I want to push the boundary and the envelope and do some cool stuff. Yeah.
Wisdom:
Very nice. That's awesome. Yeah. We're excited for that song. I heard a very rough demo of it, I think, and it's such a powerful song. And actually somebody at Wipe Every Tear told me about the song before you even sent it to me. And she was like, "I don't know if Todd will ever let the world hear the song." But it's such a powerful song that she was like, "You need tissue boxes for this." So yeah, we're super excited for that.
Wisdom:
So I want to ask you, going back to something you mentioned earlier about Jesus calling the disciples and the disciples dropping everything and going with Jesus, but then you also see people that Jesus called to follow him and they couldn't drop everything and follow him. They just couldn't do it. And I think, especially in music, especially for independent artists that are starting out, maybe they feel this tugging towards doing music, but maybe they're afraid, and there's a million reasons why they don't want to do or can't do it. How would you advise somebody like that, that's trying to figure out is this God calling me or is this more of a selfish ambition? And how would you encourage that person?
Todd:
Yeah, that's really good. The first thing I'll say is this, I love the story... There's a story in the Bible where Paul is getting started in ministry. And Paul is a planner, very learned, scholar type person, so he's got strategies, he's got plans, has this whole missionary strategy on where he's going to go and he's going to go from this point to this point, and the Bible says that on his way that God redirected him. God spoke something to me years and years ago about that scripture, I was just sort of asking him like, "What's that about? He had the plan." And I felt like God was just saying that it's so much easier to steer a moving vehicle. So Paul was already committed and going forward, so it was easy for God to use that momentum and just go, "You're doing right, just go this way or go this way first."
Todd:
And so the first thing I would say is just get the ball rolling. To me, that's the hardest part of any endeavor is the start. So if you can start and that can be baby steps, that's just getting some momentum. We use that momentum to go forward. Second thing I would say is find some people that you can create with that are smarter than you. I never, ever, ever want to be the smartest person in the room, the most talented person in the room. I want to be like fourth or fifth in that list because people that are better are going to push you and get something out of you that you don't even know how to get there. If you're always the brightest, and the smartest, and most the talented in the room, there's just only so much that that'll take you. But if other people are surrounding you that are better and smarter, I mean, you just go so much further. And I've been able to find that.
Todd:
And the second thing is, or the third thing is just have an open hand with things. When I started in this process of writing the songs, producing the songs, releasing the songs, I almost had no expectation of what was going to happen, so that I could just let it be what it was and not have expectation. I'm going to release this first single and it's going to be number one on Billboard. Whatever, I just open-handed with what God wanted to do with it and be okay with that.
Todd:
And then taking advice from the people around you. I tell people this all the time, with you guys specifically, we're getting started very early on in our relationship on how we're working together, and I'm trying to save money on album artwork and so I'm just all DYI, doing it myself. And I think it looks great. I felt really good about it. I sent it to you guys and Wisdom calls me and goes, "Hey man, it's just not good." And I was like, "Absolutely." And I was so thankful that I have people in my life that will tell me that and not just be like, "Okay, he wants to do this, so we're going to let him." But you need people in your life that are going to challenge you and point you in the right direction. And I'm so glad you did because if you A and B that artwork, there's no contest. So, you were absolutely right. I think that's a big part of why people are listening to the music. It's got to look nice too.
Wisdom:
I think I said it a little bit nicer than like, "This just isn't it."
Todd:
You did.
Wisdom:
This sucks.
Todd:
It was definitely a nice delivery, but I heard you. Yeah.
Wisdom:
That's amazing. The first point that you were making, we actually just had a staff meeting this morning and I was sharing about a book called The Dip and it's by a thought leader named Seth Godin. He's a marketer, but he speaks a lot into business and stuff. And basically the whole concept is that when you start out, you have momentum and you're excited, so it's that initial push to get started. But then when you do get started and have some momentum, you always experienced this dip after a while, where you feel like giving up, and things feel hard, you run into roadblocks. But he talks about how if you push through, on the other side there's much bigger rewards, and all the blood, sweat, and tears that you put into it, that's on the other side, you get to reap the benefits of it. But so many people stop when they experience the dip and a little bit of a hardship.
Wisdom:
And also, I think that's where you can really prayerfully go, "Okay, is this something I'm supposed to continue pushing through? Or maybe this is a dead-end and I'm supposed to quit here." So yeah, I think that's really good encouragement. And I don't know if Kat, do you want to read some of these questions we have?
Kat:
Yeah. I think they're mostly... They're not exactly about Todd, but we can still answer them. I think they're good. It's a good question. It says, what advice can you give someone who wants to get into the business side of Christian music? And then the follow-up is, do they need to move to Nashville to be more exposed to it or should they stay where they are?
Wisdom:
I would say really the first thing is build relationships. I think probably the wrong approach is just to hit up people in the industry on the business side and go like, "I want to work for you." Or "Can you give me free advice." I get those a lot. My favorite one is like, "Can I pick your brain?" Because I grew up in the Korean culture, sayings like that, actually, I take it literally and I have a hard time not picturing somebody picking my brain, literally. But I would say that's probably the worst way to approach that. And I'd love to hear Todd's thoughts on that too, but I think letting it naturally unfold and just building genuine relationships. And I don't think it's bad to reach out to somebody that you know, maybe through a mutual friend or something, and say, "Hey, could I meet you and buy you coffee and learn a little bit about the music industry." Or something like that.
Wisdom:
So yeah, I think typically the best thing... I'm going to respond a little better and quicker if Todd reaches out and goes, "Hey, I have this college grad that wants to get into the Christian music industry. Can I connect you with this person? Would you mind spending 30 minutes with them on Zoom or something?" I'd be happy to jump on and do that versus somebody I've never heard of, don't know anything about, reaching out because first thing I'm going to think is, is this spam or is this somebody trying to scam me? Because there's too much of that going on. But Todd, do you have any thoughts?
Todd:
Yeah. To echo a little bit of what you said, those relationship things. I've been sort of blown away with how friendly and approachable other Christian artists in this space are. And I guess because I have not been a part of that, and so you kind of hear horror stories about music industry people and it's sort of narcissistic and things like that. That's not been in my experience at all. People have been very open and I would just say that the connection point is more the idea than what you can get from people, and just spend time with them, and ask them about what they're interested in, and see if you connect is probably more important than the business relationship, at least at first. If you connect with someone, then it's going to be easier to work with them, I think.
Wisdom:
Yeah. And I think just really valuing people's time because reality is all of us are out here trying to make a living, put food on the table for our families. And so for somebody to ask on a professional level, "Hey, can I spend 30 minutes or an hour with you?" That's a pretty big ask because that's taking them away from their core job of what they actually get paid for. So I would really try to value people's time and not be a burden, but even see if you can add value to that person.
Wisdom:
The second question about moving to Nashville. I would say before COVID, you probably have to. It's hard to find opportunities if you're not in Nashville, which is the Christian music hub. Now I think so much of that is remote that I don't know that it's necessary. I've even talked to people at labels just a couple of weeks ago and they've hired, the labels hired, multiple people during COVID that don't even live in Nashville and they've never met them in person, it's all been Zoom interactions. So the worlds definitely changed, so it kind of opens up opportunities for people that can't or don't want to live in Nashville. I personally don't live in Nashville. I did for a few years, I live in Kansas City, but I do make a point to go out there every couple of months and keep the relationships going. So...
Kat:
Yeah. I guess the one pro I would say about moving here is just that it does feel like the world here in Nashville is really small, and so a lot of these people all know each other and once you are friends with someone, or you accidentally become friends with someone, you end up realizing that they're connected to all these other people too. And I think that part of just building organic relationships is easier in person. But I think you're totally right Wisdom, multiple people have said that they've been hiring people outside the city. So...
Wisdom:
Yeah. I would say that's a pro if you're a nice person, if you're kind of a jerk...
Kat:
Don't come.
Wisdom:
And you live in Nashville and take advantage of people, word will spread fast.
Kat:
Yeah. And...
Wisdom:
Because this is a small community.
Kat:
There are more than enough of those people already here. So...
Wisdom:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kat:
Maybe don't do it.
Wisdom:
Yep.
Kat:
Well, Todd, thank you so much for coming on and just sharing so honestly, like always, about who you are, where you're from, what you're doing. Can you tell people where they can find all of your stuff in case they want to go listen to it after this?
Todd:
Thanks for having me. It's been a blast. Todd McVicker is the name, it's on all the streaming platforms and YouTube and all the things.
Kat:
There you go.
Wisdom:
I would really encourage people to go watch Todd's music videos on YouTube because they are so good. You didn't skimp out on music videos. Because the easy route would have been, "I'm going to just do all these music videos in the studio, or in a studio." While every video, I think, tells a story and they're just really interesting and fun to watch. So look them up on YouTube.
Todd:
Thanks man. Yeah.
Kat:
Yeah. Well Todd, thank you again. Thank all of you for tuning in and watching this live, or listening to it later on our podcast, or on our YouTube channel. One thing I do want to tell you all about is that next Tuesday our collaborative playlist will be opening up and we'll be posting about that right here on our Christian Music Marketing Instagram. And we'd love to hear what you've been working on and consider it for next month's lineup. So, with that, thank you both again and we will see you all next Wednesday. Bye guys.
Wisdom:
Thanks.
